Collection: Chandler Davidson Texas Politics research collection Interviewee: Isabelle Gantz Interviewer: Chandler Davidson Date: 09/21/1978 Transcribed by: Gabby Parker Chandler Davidson: Thursday, September the 21st, 1978. Isabelle, what I would like for you to do is simply tell me, in your own words, from the beginning, what the nature of your complaint is, as far at the University of St. Thomas. And you. Isabelle Gantz: Well, last May 8th I uh... wrote to Dr. James T. Sullivan, who's the Executive Assistant for Academic Affairs at the University of St. Thomas, applying for promotion to assistant professor. Uh... I listed the number of courses that I had taught at the University, which numbered 11 different courses, and two more, which I was going to teach this coming year. And I...gave to him a complete file of recitals and reviews and programs, et. cetera, and... just general literature outlining my qualifications. Um... actually, there were two different letters. One was a list of courses, and one one was the other letter. I then heard nothing, and didn't get a contract for this coming year. CD: Do you have copies of those letters you sent him? IG: Yes, I do. CD: What are those dated? IG: May 8th was the list of courses. In presenting my case for promotion to assistant professor, I ne-neglected to enumerate the courses. So that's the May 8th date. I applied some time before that, at the beginning of May. CD: Okay. IG: ***thank you so much. Um... everyone else received contracts, I did not, so I called Dr. Sullivan and said I had not received my contract yet, and he said uh, "I think I should talk to you." And I said "Is it bad?" and he said "Well...why don't you make an appointment with me, you know, within the coming week," I said "Are you busy right now?" and he said "No," so I said "I'll be right there." So I came there, and he said um "I'm afraid you have a terminal contract, and next year's your last year at St. Thomas. I have been working at St. Thomas since, 1971, and... I've been full time since...whenever it began--this is my fourth year full-time, now. CD: And what is your rank? IG: Instructor. Now, this University keeps you part time forever. That is, I had a 3/4 time contract plus 2 1/2 hours of teaching. *laughs* You understand. CD: Okay. IG: So finally, they had to make me full time because I was over full time. So I've been full time, plus paid extra for any extra hours on top. Well, Dr. Sullivan said "You know, I'm sorry to say this, but you've been granted a terminal contract," and I said "why?" CD: Let, let me just interject right here, a question--Are you uh... informed by letter every year that your contract is renewed? IG: We just received a contract. A yearly contract. Year-to-year basis. CD: I see. Has there ever been any discussion with you about the possibility of promotion? IG: No. No, it's just that...after three years of full-time service, one generally applies for promotion. CD: I see. IG: And one can either request it oneself, or the chairman requests it for you. CD: Okay, and was there ever any discussion about the possibility of tenure? IG: No. CD: Does, to your knowledge, the University of St. Thomas have any stated tenure rules? IG: Well, each time you get a 1-year contract, you are on a tenure track, and getting that much further along, and the contract states that. CD: Now, is this normal practice for all full-time faculty members, to receive only a one-year contract? IG: Mm-hm. Yes. CD: In other words, people don't usually receive a three-year contract? IG: Precisely. CD: But-- IG: I'm not sure what tenured members receive. CD: I see. IG: But non-tenured members receive one-year contracts, and usually very late. It's been a constant complaint in the faculty. CD: Okay. And what is your usual teaching load? As a full-time faculty member? IG: It's very difficult to say, because private lessons--uh, if you teach only private lessons, it's 20 hours per week. Of face-to-face teaching. CD: 20 hours a week? IG: Mm-hm. If you teach only courses, it's 12 hours a week, which is four courses. Three--three credits each. If you teach ensembles, sometimes you can be working four hours a week on an ensemble and get only one teaching credit hour. They balance all of these, and this gets into very higher mathematics to decide exactly how much--generally private teaching is...let me rephrase that. Classroom teaching is worth one and a half hours of private teaching. CD: I see. IG: Generally. The assumption being that you have to prepare a class, and you don't have to prepare for a private lesson. CD: When you began at St. Thomas, did you have an advanced degree? IG: Yes. CD: What was that? IG: I began--well, I had a Master's degree, and I had...no, I had not yet started on my Doctor's. Master's degree, plus 12 hours of education credits. CD: A Master's degree in what? IG: Master's degree in Music--Bachelor of Music. CD: And where--where were those degrees--from? IG: Major ***. That was from the University of Houston, the education course was from New York University. And the Undergraduate from Julliard M.P. School. CD: Okay. And, do you mind telling me what your starting salary was when you first began full-time? IG: ...$9,000. CD: Do you usually get, um, and increment raise every year? IG: Yeah, yeah, you get a small increment. I have to look up the figures. CD: Okay. Okay. Fine. Can you go on now, from--from where you were? IG: Okay. So, I asked Dr. Sullivan "why?" and he said "we'd rather not give reasons." I said, "I'd really like to know some reason." He said, "Number one, I heard that you damaged the piano at the last Music Ensemble concert." I said, "Where did you hear this? As far as I know, the piano was not damaged." He said, "Well, I can't tell you where." Uh... He said "Generally, you've always been somewhat troublesome. Now, two years ago, I was ready to give you a terminal contract, but I just missed the day." CD: Did he ever inform you of that fact? Earlier? IG: No, no. CD: Have you--had you ever, up until this point, heard any specific criticism, from either the administration, or from your chairman, about the way that you were generally performing your duties? IG: My chairman was coming up to be and saying "you're a trouble-maker" and giggling. You know, "Isabelle, you're quite a trouble-maker." CD: And what is the-- IG: And I said, "What does that mean, why am I a trouble-maker?" --in fact, I have a letter here, to him, uh...written on May 8th, say-- CD: Of this year? IG: --of last y--yes. Of this year, '78. --Saying "I was moderately distressed by one remark you made to me. Far from being a troublemaker at St. Thomas, I have been toiling--" and I have his letter here. CD: But he never, at any point, as your chairman, invited you into his office or sat down with you and said "Isabelle, I simply want to give you a few comments about your performance here, and I think you're doing good in such and such a way, and I think that in other respects, why, you need to bring your performance up to standards?" IG: No, he never said that. He did write a letter a year and a half ago, congratulating me on being so supportive and helpful. CD: Do you have a copy of that letter? IG: Yes, I do. CD: Good. What is his name, by the way? IG: Edgar Martin. CD: How do you spell that? IG: M-A-R-T-I-N. CD: Okay. IG: E-D-G-A-R, is the first name. CD: Okay. Go ahead. IG: Uh... Dr. Sullivan said the second reason that he would give me, is that two years ago, I had written a note, complaining...um, about spending office hours. They sent a general notice around to all faculty, asking to list office hours every day. And I said, I had already been teaching 20 hours per week, and putting in these endless extra hours in faculty meetings, student recitals, concerts at night, you know, preparing a student for recital, et cetera. And all that, without pay. So I thought it--first of all, unnecessary--I see most students one-to-one anyway, and second of all, above and beyond the call of duty, to ask me to hold office hours and...and wait, and he said that was more trouble-making. So those were the only two reasons he gave me. So I then-- CD: Huh. IG: --inquired as to--yes? CD: I'm sorry, go ahead. IG: --as to how to protest this contract. CD: You inquired to him? IG: No. No, no, I didn't ask him. CD: How did your meeting with him end? At...at that time? IG: I said "thank you very much." That's it *laughs* CD: Uh-huh. IG: He had called in uh...the Director of Admissions, as a witness. So-- CD: To the conversation? IG: --there was--yeah, there was Mr. Nack sitting there, just listening. And I just said "thank you very much, bye." Uh... then I inquired as to how to protest this, and...uh, asked for a copy of the faculty handbook. Actually, I had asked...earlier, before any of this started for a copy of the faculty handbook, and they told me it was out of print. This was the president's office. Uh... CD: So who did you ask, who were you asking now? IG: So then I went around to d-different faculty members, asking if they had a copy of the faculty handbook, finally found one, and xeroxed one, and looked up as to...what the procedure was, and found out it's the grievance committee. CD: Does that handbook have a date on it? IG: Uh, 1971. And supposedly that has been superceded by a new, uh... set of by-laws dated 1978, however, the ex-chairman of the grievance committee, who is named Jamie Trussel, uh... quoted those to me, and I said, " I don't have a copy of those, I didn't know they exist" and she said "I'm afraid nobody has a copy." I said, "It's difficult to quote by-laws if nobody has a copy and the chairman of the faculty senate doesn't know they exist," she said "I'm afraid that's true." CD: Did she say when they were superseded? IG: Oh, she said they were written this year, the uh... the crucial difference was that contracts, legally, can now be handed out the last day of the spring semester for the coming year. Uh...the previous by-laws said they had to be given on March 15th. And I had cited the March 15th date in my complaint to the grievance committee. CD: Do you know whether this change in the rules...was made...simply by the administration, or were--was there any kind of faculty input into it? IG: No idea. *** Interview: Do you have a faculty senate? IG: There is a faculty senate, yes. And...the procedure is to bring your grievances to the grievances committee, they then make a recommendation to the Faculty Senate, who then makes a recommendation--which then makes a recommendation to the Pr--to the President. CD: Is the faculty senate elected solely by the faculty? And does it consist solely of faculty members? Or are there administrators on it as well? IG: I think... it's solely...no, there are administrators. Yes, there are. Yeah, there's a dean on it. And I'm not sure, I'd really have to look up the composition of the faculty senate, CD: Okay. Okay. So-- IG: They’re supposed to be elected by departments. If a department has at least 8 members, they can elect a faculty senate member. CD: Oh really? But if you're-- IG: If it's under eight, you have to get together with another department. CD: Oh, I see. Okay, I hate to keep interrupting-- IG: It's fine, fine. CD: --your kind of stream, here, but I'm just trying to get facts as we go along. IG: So, I found out the names of the three members of the grievance committee. And they were Jenny Trussel, who's a nurse, uh, Paul Jacobs, who is a theologian, and...George Dubei, who's a mathematician. CD: Is this... grievance committee appointed by the administration, or is it...? IG: No, the grievance committee and all committees are appointed by the just-passed chairman of the faculty senate. CD: Okay. IG: Um...I wrote Jenny Trussel a letter--a three-page letter, which I have here. [rustling paper] She said, put everything into writing--your exact grievance--I'm sorry, it's two pages, it seemed longer. CD: Okay, what's the date on that? IG: Uh, May 31st, 1978. And my grievances were "I am being dismissed without due process," "I have not been given adequate cause for my dismissal," now that--that point has been argued against me--that is, not given a dismissal, I think I used the wrong word, as far as the AARP Regulations are concerned, and the by-laws--I'm being terminated. And it's a crucial difference, because somebody who's being dismissed is either tenured, or an un-tenured member fired before the term of contract is up. CD: Okay. IG: And...if I were being dismissed, I could then go to-- [rustling paper] --there's another committee... I'm not sure what the name of the committee is, I'll have to look it up, but... I'm not able to. Ummm... CD: Let me establish one fact at this point--your chairman is indeed a chairMAN, right? He's a man. IG: Well, that was the--another point in this letter. Edgar Martin, the present chairman--that was when I was--when I wrote the letter--who recommended that I be given a terminal contract, is himself leaving his position effective August 1978. He is no longer my chairMAN, and the new "chairperson" is a woman, she's a nun named Sister Jane Conway. And sister Jane knew about this. CD: Okay. IG: Ummm, one other point in the letter..."It's the duty of the department chairman to meet with members of his department at least once each semester to discuss prominent problems, and there was no meeting at all. Of the music faculty. CD: Mm-hm. IG: Umm...Except when I finally requested it, and he called me a trouble-maker. CD: How many members are in your department, Isabelle? IG: There are 8 full-time now. Just...became eight. So, formally, in order to have a representative to the senate, we had to combine with the drama and the art faculty. CD: Okay. IG: Well, I wrote this letter, and...then waited, and uh...trying to remember exactly what happened...this was, of course, after most people were leaving for the summer. You know, otherwise unavailable. Uh... Jenny Trussle said that...they were all three in town, but there were so many people out of town--senate members out of town, she thought it would be better if we wait until the fall. So I said that was fine. So, nothing happened during the summer. I got back in the fall, and I called Jenny Trussle, and I said, "could we get the committee together now, and investigate the case?" And she said "Well, I don't know what t-we can do for you," I said, "you're supposed to be the independent fact-finding body of the university," she said, "well, we were told...by Dr. Sullivan that he'd take care of it." And I said, "first of all--" CD: That he would take care of the grievance procedure? IG: Of--yeah, of the case. They didn't have to meet. CD: Oh, I see. IG: Umm...I said, "First of all, Dr. Sullivan shouldn't be in charge of this case because he is now the...vice president in charge of things other than faculty problems, and Father Young is now the Vice President in charge of faculty problems''--this was printed in a newspaper, which I have, umm, she said "that's all I can tell you, you have to talk to administration." So, I saw George Dubei, another member of the grievance committee, and he implied to me that maybe I should wait until Jenny Trussle were off the committee, because it would be advantageous to me, and she supposedly would be leaving in the fall. So I went to see Elizabeth Parr, who was the chairman of the faculty senate last year. Umm...she is there for the head of committee, on committees, in charge of choosing members of the committees, and I asked her if Jenny Trussle were ready to leave, and she looked up and said "she came in 1975, therefore she should be leaving." She called up Jenny Trussle, and Jenny Trussle said, "No, I think I'm supposed to leave in the spring." Elizabeth Parr said, "Well, then probably you would have a 1976 next to your name." "Well," Jenny Trussle said, "I'm not sure, but we have some cases pending, and it's better not to change horses in midstream." Now this conversation, of course, was reported to me by Elizabeth Parr--is off the cuff, you know, shouldn't be on any record. At any rate, Elizabeth Parr said to me, "she'll be replaced in October, for sure, in fact, probably the next senate meeting"--which took place yesterday. Wednesday, the 20th of September. And indeed, a new grievance committee member was chosen, Virginia Burnhardt, of the history department. So we have--now have a new grievance committee. At any rate, I kept trying to find out what the grievance committee was doing, whether they would f-fulfill their function at all. I went to see father Young, who was very sweet, but not very cooperative, and he said to me "I don't know anything about this case, I just came here...you know, you probably have to talk to Dr. Sullivan." CD: Is--is there any description in the faculty handbook of what the normal procedure is for filing and processing a grievance? IG: Yeah, the grievance committee. The function of the grievance committee is outlined in the handbook. CD: But do they give you any indication of how long is usually involved? IG: No. CD: --the time involved in--? IG: No, they say you must put the grievance in writing, and the committee meets--I guess, on demand, or whenever--they consider whether they--the case has merit. Probably over the telephone, and then they meet ***. CD: Mm-hm. Okay. IG: Where was I? CD: You had just gone to Father Young. IG: Right, talked to father young, who--who really wasn't that helpful. I then went to my new chairman, Sister Jane Conway, who had just returned from the hospital where she had had a very serious operation. Uh...I sent her a letter. I said "So glad you're feeling better. Could we please talk about my unfortunate contract?" No answer. So I happened to bump into her in the music building, and I said "Do you have any answer to my letter," and she said "yes, um...not in writing, but you must see the administration, and...I can't talk about it." So I wrote her another letter, and I said "would you put your refusal in writing?" No answer. Met her again, and she said "No, nothing in writing" So I put my name on her door... and showed up last Friday, and she was there in the main office, and I said "could we talk privately?" And she said "No, I have to stay here and answer the phone." I said, "Alright, we'll talk here." And I said, "I'd like to talk to you as a human being. You just had-- your--a very very traumatic experience," --she had a serious cancer operation, and probably went through a lot of suffering, I said "Do you have any idea what it feels like to come to school every day, when nobody will talk to you? About this issue?" And she said "Uh-huh." And I said "What would it feel like if you got a letter from your order, saying 'pack up and get out?' And if you asked 'why?,' they wouldn't answer you? In writing or otherwise, they just wouldn't answer?" She said "Uh-huh, well, you have to ad--ask the administration." I said "Is that all you have to say? I've asked the administration, they don't answer me." She said, "Well, that's not all I have to say--your recital is cancelled. The music department won't support it." And I said, "Is that the only gift you have for me?" [laughs ruefully]. So I left. CD: Has she...uh, been, previously a member of your department? IG: Mm-hm. Yeah. CD: You've known her, then, for some time. IG: Yeah, she's been there all the time. Uhh... a few things-- CD: Has she, has she usually been, uh, friendly? Or supportive? Or, have you--? IG: Friendly, but...not supportive in any way. She's a rather rigid person. CD: Mm-hm. IG: She would never really say anything. At all. Cautious. CD: Do you know enough about the internal structure of your department to have any idea whether, at any point, this decision was discussed by the tenured members of the department? IG: No. I do know that nobody else--I can't say that... I know that most people--one is a question, two are a question...but I don't think so. I know for certain the people that I've talked to knew nothing about it. It was a total shock to them. CD: How many tenured members of the department are there? IG: I'd have to figure that out...1, 2, 3...4... I think four. And four not. Um... Mrs. Mary Shetley, who's now 68, uh...was tenured, but she's now on a 1-year contract, because she's over 65. Um...she knew nothing about it. Let me see... yes, I wanted to back check on that uh...Back in May, I wrote a letter to Edgar Martin, asking for reasons, quoting the faculty handbook, that says "One should have reasons--one is entitled to reasons." Uh, he scrawled--on my letter--"See Dr. Sullivan." I had forgotten all of it. Uh...I wrote to Dr. Sullivan, and uh... he didn't answer back. He didn't answer my letter requesting reasons. I then hired a lawyer, whose name was Carol Malken, and asked her aid in this case. And Dr. Sullivan called me and said "If you would like to meet with the Rank, Tenure, and Promotion committee, uh... before they leave, you may do so." So I called my lawyer and she said--yeah, Dr. Sullivan said to come tomorrow morning, that was about 19 hours notice. And she said "Could you make it next week? And, ask for the reasons, we'll prepare a defense." Dr. Sullivan said, no, it has to be tomorrow morning, because there's another member leaving--one is already gone--and you know, there will be no ***." So my lawyer and I got there, they asked us to wait outside for ten minutes, and...then ushered us in--I have the names of the Rank, Tenure, and Promotions committee. CD: Could you tell me what their role is in this decision, if any? IG: I-- CD: Did they--did they pass on the decision of your departmental chairman to-- IG: They passed on the decision--supposedly, my departmental chairman appeared before them, recommended that not only that I not be given a promotion, but that I be given a terminal contract. I learned today that one of the members of the committee had never heard any reasons, whatsoever. They did not really have any information, essentially it's a rubber-stamp committee. This person also said that they were somewhat intimidated by the presence of my lawyer, so they didn't want to speak. You know, but I answered that I needed a witness, because they...had six witnesses for each other. The members of the committee are uh.. Madame Levien, who is the French department, who has, herself, had some...shady firings in her department. She has, herself, fired...two um... women whom she's d--f--shf--first she befriends them, and then...next year fires them. It happened twice. Then Father Young appeared for the French Department, and I assume that was to break up the pattern, because Levien, of course, is tenured, and they couldn't do anything about--people who were being fired. Mavis Pennington, who's a nurse. Uh, Margaret Hutchinson, who quoted that she didn't know anything about the facts of the case--she's from math. Don Hogan, who is a dean. Will Macgoetz, who's a sociologist, and James Sullivan. Uh... we came in there, and Dr. Sullivan said to us, we're ready to listen. And I said, "I'm not the one who has anything to say, you have given me the terminal contract. We'd love to know the reasons." He said "It's not within the province of this committee to give you reasons." So my lawyer says "I'm at a loss as to how to proceed in this case." Dr. Sullivan said, it's not within the province of this committee to tell you how to proceed in this case." Silence. As she said "Well, my client has brought these documents, which we'd like members of the committee to read. And I had xeroxed one--the rave review that I had gotten that spring--from Carl Cunningham, who is my colleague, and the music faculty and all-summer guest chairman. He had also made complaints about me, while he was chairman. CD: Cunningham? IG: Cunningham. He's-- CD: And he's the reviewer for the post? IG: He's the reviewer for the post. He had complained that I was...gone at Easton, for an extended weekend. And he wrote that letter, which Sullivan quoted to me. Um... CD: Well, what do you, what did he mean by an extended weekend? IG: Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday--I was gone Monday and Tuesday. CD: Was he angry because you didn't tell him in advance that you were going? IG: I did tell him in advance. In fact that--the letter--that's tacked on to his complaint is my answer to him, which is "I did tell you I was going." CD: Did he g--did he give you permission to go? IG: I think I just sent him a letter, saying I would be away for these days, taking my ***. I don't think he answered. I'm not sure I remember anything. As far as I know, he answered. Um...there's been a strange history of chairmen in that department. The first chairman was Herb Hathaway--do you know that story, about Hathaway? CD: No. IG: He is the one who was um... taking excursions to outer space. He was forming--he was getting groups of people to leave their families and homes and everywhere-- CD: --Oh yeah, I've heard of him...yeah, I read about that-- IG: --and it was called Bo and Peep, it was written up in Time--the Newsweek, about how Bo and Peep went off into outer space, and interplanetary travel. He had started a group called um... Christian Arts Center Unitarian Church, and... I was the head of the Director of music in the Unitarian church, and they asked me "what do you think of this group?" and I said "Why don't you get a list of backers?" CD: *laughs* IG: So they got a list of backers, and nobody ever heard of any of them--one of them was brother Francis of Athens, Greece. CD: Specializes in the music of the spheres? Is that--? IG: Right. Well--not quite. So, I got back and I asked about how the Christian Arts Center was going, and they said "It's now called NO." And I said "what is 'NO'" and the president of the congregation said "damned if I know." Sort of an occult thing. And he said "You remember Brother Francis?" and I said "Yes," and he said "He died in 1811." *both chuckle* IG: *** Then Carl Cunningham took this job and he was just getting...nastier and nastier and nastier--you know, everybody was saying...he's just impossible to get along with. He--finally quit that job, and he's just lovely now. CD: Does he just review full-time? For the Post? Or, what does he-- IG: Well, he still teaches-- CD: Oh, I see. IG: At St. Thomas. Now, he's a tenured member, but he's only a lecturer because he's part-time. CD: Oh, I see. IG: Um...teaches music history, and...Post is his full-time job. But...seems the pressure is on. Then Edgar Martin became chairman and started giving me trouble. CD: When did he become chairman? IG: He's been chairman for two years. CD: Did the trouble start almost as soon as he became chairman? IG: No. No, not really. And it's very difficult to say he's giving trouble because he has a... a uh...veneer of, just, giggling all the time. And laughing, you know, and he says...the most insulting things while...supposedly laughing with you. You know, it's disarming in a way. You know, uh... let me see if I can find *** You know, I heard that the--that central, with the piano, you know, that's, you know, I don't--I don't know what it is, you know, some kids have complained of something, that somebody was climbing the piano. Something--something like that. CD: Could you--could you tell about the piano incident? For the record here? IG: Yeah, for the record. Uh, I was the director of the New Music Ensemble. Um... there was a piece called "Eine Kleine Stitch for Piano 17 hands", which I wrote, and it's um... it's a modern farce, really. And in it, there were 9 students, distributed all around the piano--one of them with their arm in a sling, so...17 hands. And...three were playing the keyboard, and some were s--and some were plucking the strings, and some were knocking the bottom of the piano, and...that was essentially what happened to the piano. Somebody who doesn't know anything about modern music would think this piano might be damaged, which it was not, because I have the statement from the tuner. But that's how that started. During that concert, Edgar Martin showed up and was just...sitting in that audience, looking around...taking notes. I mean...it seems to me, looking at this, from...in retrospect, that he was planning something, you know? That that music ensemble concert, he was going to use in some way. Uh...yes, back to the-- CD: But he, did he ever complain to you, face-to-face about the piano? Did he ever make the charge? IG: Yes, yes, during the rehearsals, he said, you know "I hear the piano is being damaged" And..see-- CD: And how did you respond to that? IG: And I said, "As far as I know, the piano isn't being damaged" you know, "why don't you come take a look?" CD: This was before the concert? IG: This was before the concert. CD: And so, then during the concert, he showed up and was taking notes. IG: He showed up...and was taking notes. Yeah. CD: And then, during the concert, or after the concert, or any time up until the time that you were given the reasons for your being fired, was the piano incident ever mentioned again? IG: No. I remembered another thing--before the concert, after the rehearsal, he said "There's some...person here, who's going to give a lot of money to the University of St. Thomas"--No, sorry, it was after the concert. He said "This man is going to give a m-- *was* going to give a large amount of money for a new piano, after he saw what we did to the piano at the concert. He withdrew that," and he said "You and I should lose our jobs." This is what Edgar Martin said. CD: Said that Martin and you--Isabelle, should lose your jobs? IG: Should lose our jobs for the treatment of this piano. Martin said this to me during the uh...vocal juries, which was after the concert. Also, sort of "half-kidding." CD: What are the vocal juries? IG: I-it's like a final exam for singers. So, the two-- CD: Okay, so the two of you were judging IG: We were ju--we were both judging, he brought up the piano. And he told me about this man, this man. CD: And--and then, at what point did you...document the fact that the piano indeed, hadn't been damaged? IG: After I received the terminal contract. CD: This was this summer? You-- IG: This was in May. CD: In May. IG: And Mary Shetley went to the... to the uh, treasurer's office. To find out what the name of the tuner was. Found out the name of the tner, called him up, and said "this piano was *supposedly* damaged on May 5th, and there was another recital-- [Tape cuts out] [Tape cuts back in] CD: Terry, this is a memo-- IG: Uh, she asked the tuner, whose name I forgot--I can look that up. If the t--if the piano had been damaged on May 5th. And he said that he had tuned the piano for the May 10th recital, and he has in his records only a bill for tuning, not for repairs, so... as far as he knows, it couldn't have been damaged during that week. CD: But if it even, in the off chance that it were damaged-- it was not something that was obvious, or noticeable, or...I mean, at the very most, th--the only damage could have been that it was out of tune? Is that...is that right? IG: You mean--you mean as far as the tuner is concerned, or as far as-- CD: As far, well, as far as the...I mean, certainly, there wasn't any visible damage-- IG: No. CD: --that anyone could have pointed to, or that anyone would have noticed after the concert, and said "look, the leg has fallen off," or uh... IG: Oh, no, of course not, no, there was nothing you could see. Somebody looking at the concert, seeing a student plucking the strings inside the piano, says "that's not the way you're supposed to play a piano." CD: But, and then, after that, there was no complaint on anybody's part that the piano didn't play right--? IG: No, no. CD: Or that the keys stuck, or it was out of tune? IG: No, no, no, none of that. CD: Okay. IG: No complaint from anybody, but Edgar Martin. CD: And that was only a complaint--I mean the complaint that you got was, first of all, his worry during the...res--during the rehearsal, and then, his mentioning to you at the jury that a donor, a potential donor had seen it and was shocked by it. And that was that. IG: Right. Right. CD: By the way, where did you end up getting your Doctorate? IG: I haven't gotten it yet--it's from Eastman School of Music. CD: Okay. IG: I've done all the coursework and all the recitals, and what is left is, is uh... the final exams. And a dissertation. And they just... decided that DMA candidates don't have to write dissertations, they can take four courses, and write all the papers concerning-- CD: Oh, congratulations. IG: --So that's the way I'm going to do it. So essentially, it's two more summers. Um...that's another thing about the University of St. Thomas. I went in to get my robe for graduation, and...asked, the Dean asked me where I was getting my Doctorate, I said "Eastman School of Music," he said "Where's that?" I said "Don't you think...?" *laughs* "You should know where that school...?" I'm not a name-dropper, but it's silly. CD: Oh my God. IG: Well, back to the Grievance--no, no the Grievance--the Rank, Tenure, and Promotion Committee. I had brought three documents--one was the Rave Review from Carl Cunningham of the last...the last recital I gave, last April. Uh...one was the letter I had mentioned before, from Edgar Martin of a year and a half ago, congratulating me, among all the rest of the faculty members--I mean, all of the faculty members, including me, for being so supportive of him, because he said it was such a difficult job being chairman. And. uh... a letter of support and outrage from one of my colleagues in the Houston Symphony, Wayne Crouse. So the uh...Committee read it, and they said nothing. You know, I assumed they had been told not to speak, because nobody spoke, except Sullivan. And then Sullivan said, "Well, we're ready to hear anything you have to say." I said "I've said everything. I think I'm a wonderful teacher, I have no idea why you're firing me, and I wish you would say something." And that was that, they didn't say anything. CD: Well, let me ask you this parenthetically. In the music department, as a musician, I know that as a sociologist, in my Department, I'm required to teach and to do research. IG: Right. CD: What are you required to do, as a musician? IG: We are to teach and perform. CD: You don't have to write--you aren't required to write papers, do research? IG: No, no. CD: But just to perform? IG: Right, there is--there is no publishing-- CD: And what--what does--what is the norm, so far as performance in your department goes? IG: I assume one of the sources of my trouble is that my chairman, Edgar Martin, does not perform at all. You know, unfortunately when he has performed, he's a poor performer. He gets bad reviews, so since then, he really has not performed in Houston at all. CD: What does he play? IG: Piano. He...put his name up uh--on the schedule to do a recital, and then... put out a new schedule without that recital. In other words, cancelling it without anybody knowing it was cancelled, just so it disappeared. Um...he was away from school for two weeks last year, supposedly giving a...concert tour in mexico. That's all we know. But nobody has seen any reviews of it, any...any notices of it, any evidence of it being a real concert tour...um...I am, I have been on the faculty of the American Institute of Music Studies in Gratz, Austria, which is a rather prestigious jump. And...Edgar Martin, two years ago, had said "Boy, I'd love to go...to a place like that." And... I don't have total power to get--people on the staff, on the faculty. I can suggest people who then audition. And, Mary Shetley was a person who auditioned and went to Gratz this past summer, she's an excellent pianist and sight-reader, what they need are sight-reading pianists for the singers. CD: And Shetley is in your department? IG: Yeah. CD: Does she have tenure? IG: She's the one who's 68--she had tenure, she had tenure, she lost it. CD: Oh, okay, alright, okay, alright. IG: Um...she's also my accompanist, um, at St. Thomas. Uh.. she's an excellent musician, and she's...very useful to a place like Gratz. Now, Edgar Martin cannot sight-read, so...there's no way. He could be a useful person at a place like Gratz. Uh...the other two members who did go, are my colleagues in old music, who were teaching old music this summer--uh, the Lutanist Wolfgang Justin, and recorder player Steven Bates. They're both excellent musicians. So I assume Edgar Martin was rather jealous about the fact that he couldn't go there, you know. CD: Mm-hm. IG: I really think that's the source of this whole thing. CD: I see. What--what is the u--what is the standard, uh, performance load in a year's time, are--are you required--? IG: One does not *have* to give a recital. You do not *have* to perform. Uh-- CD: I see. But you do, fairly constantly, don't you? IG: I'm talking about the general field, to get ahead in the applied music field, which is my field. In most, conservatories, Universities, if you're on the faculty, you perform a lot. Um... the better your reviews, of course, the more you advance. CD: What would you say your...average performance load has been over the past 5 or 6 years? IG: Gosh I couldn't even estimate, because I'm constantly performing. CD: You perform more than once a year, don't you? IG: I c-you know, the Renaissance Festival performs all day every weekend, you know? Um...a recital every year, I accompanied other soloists, we've, you know, I manage it and, and, and organize the concerts and do all the phone calls, and...get people write grants and stuff like that, so that's three concerts a year for them. Um... CD: And these are fairly well-attended, aren't they? By the public? IG: Yeah, you know, they take place at University of Houston, at Rice, and at St. Thomas. They have added a lot of prestige to the University of St. Thomas. 'Cause a lot of--a lot of musicians from all over the city come there. CD: Yeah, I know...we get that...we get their announcements. IG: That's right. CD: And we're on their mailing list, and boy, they have some really fun people coming through there. IG: Yeah. And uh...you know, I really think my absence will be a detriment to the department. In fact, a lot of people at the University of Houston and Rice said..."If you're not there...we're never gonna go to concerts." You know, and, another member said "who fired you? I never heard of him!" So...um. Skipping back from May to...to--let me see, where was I? And, the Grievance Committee would not meet--they said you had to see Dr. Sullivan. Sister Jane would not talk to me, cancelled the recital. Yes. I went to talk to the chairman of the AARP. Whose name is Dorothy Dillop. Lovely woman, she said "I'm afraid I can't help"--and this is out now, the news is out--that she has just taken a job in Saudi Arabia. She found it very--she had...had a terrible time with uh... with an employee who had tenure. Yeah, and she did not have tenure, although she was the head of the library. Terrible personality conflict, but there was no way she could win, she didn't have tenure. So rather than continue in this uncomfortable position, she just said "I'm leaving." Uh...the acting chairman is named Ed Hutton--he's on the math department--I went to see him, and...he went to see Dr. Sullivan and Father Brayden, who's the president of the university. They told him if I appear with my lawyer without a tape recorder, they will give me the reasons...not in writing. Now, prior to this, I had heard a leak that Dr. Sullivan had gone to Paul Jacobs, a member of the Grievance Committee and said...something about me which is so shocking that they didn't have to meet, it was an open-and-shut case--said Jacobs, to Dubais. And Dubai's daughter-in-law, who is an ex-student of mine told me this. So, my lawyer and I went...yesterday? Yesterday, it was yesterday morning, to see Dr. Sullivan, who took us up to Father Young's office, so that he would have somebody to listen also. And...he had a whole list of documents. And he said, "Alright, here are the reasons. Number one: your attitude is terrible." I said, "In what way?" And he said, "for example, last semester you called a course that you teach boring." And I said, "in what context?" And he said, "Well, read this letter that you wrote." And I read the letter, and it said "I'm requesting a faculty meeting." The fall schedule had come up, and it omitted my Musicianship IV course, which is an advanced course in theory, and listed only Fundamentals of Music, and I said, "I would like a faculty meeting to discuss the Fall Schedule--" CD: Are you talking about a departmental Faculty meeting? IG: Departmental, yeah, Music Department. Um...to find out why my course was omitted, and number two, I'm left with just teaching one boring course. And I said "Indeed, Fundamentals of Music to an advanced musician is rudimentary, it's boring. I don't present it boringly." I said "Why don't you ask my students, and see if it is. Because they get very excited, even though we're talking about half steps and whole steps." *laughs* "We have a lot of fun," and I said "Speaking of not asking students, a lot of my colleagues have written to you in protest my termin--terminal contract. Where are those letters?" And he said "They're in another file." Uh... "number two," he said "Carl Cunningham, the past chairman, in 1976, complained about you taking an extended weekend in Rochester at Eastman." And I said "That was to do my doctoral recital. Is one penalized in this University for getting a Doctorate?" He didn't answer that. Uh...I said, "I made up lessons, I didn't have any course that I missed, I made up private lessons before I left." I said, "Moreover, one of my colleagues is missing Monday every week to get a Doctorate, which I think is perfectly all right. She's not conducting the choir on that day, student's taking over, but not, you know, giving her any trouble. Not uh..." Um... He brought up the fact that each semester he gets reports of my complaints about the distribution of voice students. and I said "Yes, because I'm being given mostly the untalented students, and all of the flashy big voices, the talented students, are given to my colleague, and...it's a drag." And I do-- CD: Is this your specialty? I mean, are you--? IG: I, I'm the senior voice teacher. The voice students are handed to us, and I'm getting the dregs. CD: And they're handed to you by whom, the chairman? IG: Not known. How they, how they distribute it. You go in, and you say which voice students you like, and put them in order of preference, and then you get...the list back, of whom you've got. They try to--they try to um... comply with the desires of the students themselves, but some students don't put down any preference. So I'm not...exactly sure who chooses. Um...the fourth point, he brought up the piano again. And I said "We really have answered to that piano point." We've gone over that piano so much. *laughs* Um, then I asked him why my name had been left out of the faculty newsletter. There were two items in the faculty newsletter--one said Dr. Ann Fairbanks has performed on uh "El Mar Barreros Latissias" on Channel 8 last spring. CD: This is a recent Newsletter? IG: Yeah, it just came out. And uh... I had asked Ann Fairbanks to appear with me, because...it was a...uh, interview of the composer, Joaquim Roderigo, and...I played a piece for--I sang a piece for the voice and flute, so I asked her to come play the flute part. Well, my name was omitted from that. Then on another item it says Wolfgang Justin and Steve Bates performed and worked at the American Institute of Musical Studies in Gratz, Austria, this past summer. My name was omitted, and Mary Shetley's name was omitted. CD: Now, were you the person, if I understand you correctly, who was...initially responsible for getting them on at Gratz? IG: Right. Yeah, I had--I've been in Gratz three years, and I had suggested them for the faculty and *** Um...he said, "Sunny Overcamp--who's the journalism teacher here, prints anything she receives." And I said, "It's curious that I was omitted twice. I said, "I called Sunny to find out why I was omitted," and she said "I have no time to see you." And he said to me "Well, she told me she would have time, but she didn't have time that day." I didn't say to him, but I thought "Why is Sunny Overcamp reporting to Dr. Sullivan such minute conversation? Seemingly unimportant conversation." Um...I asked him why my faculty recital was cancelled, and he said "I don't know anything about that." And I said, "well, does the administration condone this?" And he said "I don't know, I would have to find that out." CD: Do you have any idea whose responsibility it is to cancel those? IG: No, that I don't know. If Sullivan doesn't know--and truly doesn't know, it might come from Braden, it might come from Sister Jane herself. I have no idea. You know, it seems that...in this school, if you get a rave review, you're then prevented from performing. *Laughs* And I have copies of the review and all that. CD: Mm-hm. IG: You know, the difficulty, it's very in-grown, because the reviewer's my colleague on the faculty. And the ex-chairman. All one man, Carl Cunningham. CD: But on the other hand, you have evidence that he's not just uniformly friendly to you, so-- IG: That's right, that's right, you know, so... precisely. He hasn't always given me rave reviews, he gave me some bad ones too. *laughs* So I think that brings us up to date. You know, as of yesterday. Um... conversation with Virginia Burnhardt, who is the new member of the Grievance committee, and she's very concerned about this case. She quoted, uh... Margaret Hutchinson--the member of the Rank, Tenure, and Promotion committee, who said that she didn't know any of...the grievances against me, at all. CD: Where...has [something falls in background] Uh... IG: Okay. CD: Where uh...has the, has the matter lain, or--or what is the AAUP's--your local chapter of the AAUP right now in this? Have they--? IG: As far as Ed Hutton is concerned...a--he's done his job, you know, being the liaison with Sullivan and Braden. CD: And, would you repeat again for me, just what he did on your behalf? IG: He looked up the--first of all, the by-laws. And he said "you are not a dismissal, you're a termination. So therefore, you cannot appear before--" whatever the name of that committee is, I'll have to look it up. He is a member of that committee, so he was concerned about a double-jeopardy thing. Um...so he ascertained that that was not a committee that I could appear legally in front of. So he then took on his role as the AAUP--Acting Chairman, and went to Sullivan and Braden as a liaison person and reported that, if I go to them, they will give me reasons. If then, I'm not satisfied with those reasons, I may go back to the grievance committee. So-- CD: Did he--did he say...that the AAUP would be willing to back you up? In any way? IG: No, he didn't, he didn't say that. CD: Or that they would be willing to get involved or act as a liason? IG: He said to me, essentially "This chapter on--on the St. Thomas campus doesn't pursue problems like that," I'll have to go to Washington. And I said, "what's the purpose of the chapter?" And he said "We, you know, investigate...discuss..." And I said "Doesn't seem like it's...very helpful in a case like mine." And he said "No, I'm afraid not, I think you'd better go to Washington." Now I had contacted Jonathan Knight--I had called up the AAUP office in Washington when I first got the terminal contract. THey put me onto this man named Jonathan Knight, who gave me instructions as to how to word my initial letter to the grievance committee. And he said "Send me the copies of the letters, and all the papers," which I did, but I haven't heard from him. CD: Okay. Do you have any opinions as to whether uh...sexual discrimination might be involved in this case? IG: I don't think we could fight that, because most of the wom--most of the people in campus are women.The reason being that the salaries are so low--according to the AAUP guidelines, which were just published in a recent bulletin--St. Thomas is in the bottom--rock bottom, as far as salaries are concerned. The senate meeting yesterday, I was not there, but they quoted to me that um...indeed, they read this out, that St. Thomas is in...is in the bottom. Uh...and that women were paid less than men on the campus. And--they requested that salaries be an open issue, because right now it's hidden. CD: Mm-hm. I guess what I was--what I was getting at--do you think that discrimination might have been involved insofar as your chairman's decision to terminate you? IG: Against women...? I don't know, I really don't know. Uh... he's kind of a known homosexual, he doesn't hide that. He doesn't like women very much, but there are other women on the faculty, he hasn't fired them, you know? I don't know how we could prove anything like that. Um...there's one item I forgot with Dr. Sullivan. He said, you know, again brought up the issue that I'm constantly making trouble, and...you know, he for one, would vote for my termination again, because it's...it just rubs the wrong way. And I said, indeed, I am a trouble-maker, I wrote a letter yesterday to Joseph Petris, who's the new chairman of the faculty senate, 'cause I said, sister Jane sent an announcement, saying that she is the new representative for the music faculty--to the senate, and Edgar Martin is the new representative to the curriculum committee. I quoted the by-laws saying that these members are supposed to be elected by the faculty, by the music faculty. And we had no meeting, and we had no election--they appointed themselves. I said, indeed, I am a troublemaker, but they are illegal. And I asked them to abide by the rules of the university. CD: Well, I guess what I'm asking, and I don't want to--you know, I'm not trying to--to put words into your mouth, but...it does seem to me, just listening to what you've told me, that...it's possible that part of the reason that you are defined as a "troublemaker," given the fact that the incidents that they have--that they have presented here are such...trivial and minute incidents, that part of the reason that you're defined as a troublemaker is because you are a talented woman. IG: Yeah. You know, it could be. You know, first of all, they would--First of all, I mean, there are all kinds of questions in the case. First of all, the anti-semitism issue. Which I've never brought up to them. UH... I called the anti-defamation league and I said "I know that three Jewish professors have been fired in the last four years." CD: You--you know about this at--Houston Baptist College-- IG: Is it an issue for them? CD: It's--it's, apparently-- IG: They won't hire any jews at all. CD: That's right. IG: I know that. CD: Yeah. IG: And is it being fought? CD: I don't think it is, I mean, this-- IG: I don't know that's a policy there. CD: Yeah. IG: Yeah. Um...they s--the head of the anti-defamation league said, "Out of how many, have three been fired?" And I said, "I don't know, I don't have those statistics," he said he'd need them. This would be a very difficult issue to prove, you know. All I could do was scare them. By letting it leak in some way. CD: Mm-hm. IG: Uh, personality-wise, I'm a New York Jewish woman which is very--which is a Southern, Catholic College. CD: ****yeah. IG: You know, it's as far away in culture as you can probably get in the United States, except maybe a Southern Baptist College. That would be further. Um... CD: They're both pretty far. *laughs* IG: They're both pretty far, they're both pretty far. *laughs* Um...I'm sure that enters into it. They wouldn't define it that way, you know, it's a personality that's foreign, they want to get it out of the way, it's...you know, it's not qualities that they like. CD: Mm-hm. IG: On-campus. I could do nothing, I think I could just walk through campus and...you know, and they'd want to get rid of me. You know? I look funny, I walk funny, I talk with my hands, I mean--*laughs* CD: [in exaggerated southern accent] Foreigner. *laughs* IG: [mimicking back] Foreigner, Foreigner, that's who that is, foreigner. You know. And I do a lot of performing, you know. And...and all this managing, and I guess they'd call that pushy. CD: Yeah, well...I can attest to the fact that you've certainly performed a lot. Just...as a, as a reader of the newspapers, who sees your name there fairly often on the entertain--entertainment section, music section. IG: Yeah. CD: Well-- IG: The other thing is the Arts Council--I don't know if that's come into it yet, I'm on the executive board, of the Houston C--Arts Council. I don't know that there's any...jealousy there, where they don't want to get involved, you know, I...No-- CD: What is the Arts Council? IG: This i--essentially, it is a...um... membership organization of every arts organization in the city that wishes to join. CD: Including the symphony, including...? IG: Including the big ten--the symphony, the ballet, the big three museums... CD: Alley--is that in there? IG: Alley, Tuts--they call them the "Big Ten" which are over 200,000 dollars a year budget. CD: Oh, I see. IG: Uh...the rest are under 200,000 dollars a year. You can also belong if you're an individual. You don't even have to be an artist to belong to the Arts Council. Uh... it's essentially a way of distributing funds. That's the initial reason. Uh... the Laylor bill took one perc--added one percent tax to the hotel/motel tax. So that money--approximately 1 million, 100,000 dollars a year is being distributed to, first, the big ten, and, and 75% of it goes to those Big Ten Organizations, and fifty percent of it--fifteen, is going to...the rest, you know, the small organizations, as they apply in grants, and 10 percent goes for special projects for either. CD: Mm-hm. IG: But for the most part, it goes to the...special projects of small organizations. CD: And how did you get to be a member? IG: I have been...just going to meetings forever, because I just believe fervently in the existence of that council in the city. So I kept going and going, and...working towards its creation. So therefore, since I had put in so much effort, they appointed me to the council. CD: So that's an honorific position? IG: So that's an honorific position, yeah. You know, I don't know if they'd take that against me--I have no idea. I just don't know. CD: Yeah... Can you think of anything else you'd like to say on here? IG: Um...I don't think so, I don't...within the channels of the University, I don't hope to win this case. I have absolutely no hope in the world to win this case...uh...what I would like to do is make it known to every faculty member on campus how this was handled, that it could happen to them so easily. If they pick their nose, wink the wrong way--any one of...a number of things, you know? That they're--un...until you get tenure, and even then, there's no safety on this campus. And that, it seems the chairmen have absolute power. You know? Essentially, my chairman went to the Rank, Tenure, and Promotion Committee, said this, they know nothing, they said "okay, we'll do it." CD: Do you think that, when he went to that committee, he had anything in writing, or any documents, or do you think that he just went and spoke to them one day, in a presentation, and that was enough to-- IG: I don't know if he brought any documents, you know. All I know is this statement that they don't know the reasons. CD: Uh-huh. And so that must be...uh, if they're telling the truth, that must be a standard procedure. A Chairman just walks in and he says "I recommend so-and-so," and so-and-so gets the black bean. IG: Right. Or the white one, if they don't--if he says he--you know, they're terrific. CD: Yeah. IG: I think that's all I can think of. CD: Okay. Thank you very much. [Tape cuts out] CD: This is an addendum to the conversation that we had a few minutes ago, and I'm simply adding it here because I think it might possibly have some relevance. Isabelle, could you tell me about the experience that you had as a member of the music guild, in Houston? IG: Uh, in uh...December 1970, I was a member of a group that performed early music--we had a concert to perform before the Music Guild, which is the oldest Musical Organization in Houston. Uh... a few days before the concert, the President of the Music guild, *** whom I think is still president, came to my house while two of my colleagues were there, and he said "I want you people to know that Carl Cunningham the critic does not like th--our organization, because we don't admit negroes to our concert." And I said "you just prevent people from coming?" He said, "Well, we hold them in private homes. For discriminating people." I thought about what to do. I couldn't leave the concert--I was in everything except the harpsichord solos, so...in the middle of the concert, I let out a press release and stated that I had not discussed my opinion with my colleagues in the group, but Mr. Lemure had told me that this was policy, to exclude negroes from the audiences of these concerts. I said "I find that abhorrent, I could not... in good conscience, appear before this musical organization again." When I arrived home that night, the phone was ringing. First phone call was from Elva Lobbett--she said "I'm the founder of the Houston Grand Opera, and I want you to know that you'll never perform in this town again, and anybody who performs with you will never perform in this town again, and I have a lot of power, and I'll see to it." She hung up. Phone rang again, and she said "This is Mrs. uh...Thelma Hearne." Um, most of these people are River Oaks, very very wealthy. Thelma said "You have no right to do what you do. We have a right to exclude anybody that we wish to from our private homes. You have a right to be a jew, don't you?" After that, uh... I heard nothing from any members of my group. I called to find out...when our concerts would be for young audiences, and... found out that the leader of the young audience group had changed her phone number. One of my colleagues in the group had come over and told me that Lucien Lumiere had met with the members of my group... and told them that if I'm not dropped from their association--their musical association, their personal association, that they would not perform again in Houston. Many of the Houston Symphony members were very terrified. So I never heard from them. At all. Uh...yeah, it was essentially a blacklist. In the city of Houston. Many places that I had performed were then cold to me. CD: And this was around 1970? IG: Yeah, this was the end of 1970, and the beginning of 1971. Uh... fall of 1971, a voice teacher at the University of St. Thomas quit suddenly, and Carl Cunningham called me and asked me to audition for this job among many other people. So, I went and sang, and...conducted what they call a "guinea pig lesson," they bring a student in, and you give a lesson in front of the faculty. Uh... and then he called me and said I had gotten the job. And...when I got the job, he told me that father Braden, the president of the university had gotten a call from a woman in River Oaks who said that "if you hire that woman, you'll never get any contributions from us." Father Braden, um, supposedly said uh, "We're not going to be bribed." And they hired me. Uh...so essentially, things just...calmed down, little by little. CD: Mm-hm. And you gradually-- IG: And gradually-- CD: Kind of overcame the blacklist? IG: Yeah, or really, made my own room in town, I formed my own groups. CD: Uh-huh. I--I guess what struck me about that was, your statement a little earlier that there had been a potential donor to St. Thomas who, apparently, had complained to your chairman about the way that the piano was being treated. And I was just curious as to...the role that some anonymous donor, perhaps someone...who remembered the experience in the music guild, might possibly have had, along those lines. IG: That's very possible. Um...three years ago, I auditioned for the Tuesday Musical Club, which...has some of the members of the Music Guild, but not too many. Their policy had been to exclude negroes, and they had by that time changed their policy, admitted one black person. Um... younger members were coming in, it seemed to be more interesting. So, I auditioned for that. They were very, very, warm towards me and they said, "It's wonderful to have you," and the night after I auditioned, I got a call from a woman who said "why do you want to join this club?" And I said "who is this?" and she said "Never mind who I am, why do you want to join?" I said "I like to perform, like everybody in the club." She said "I found out about you--you're half-negro, and you want to integrate us." She hung up. I knew from the voice, it was Elva Lobett again. CD: And this was when, after years ago? IG: Three years ago. Now, I do know that Elva can't be responsible for the piano incident because she died. But-- CD: *laughs* You think she can't. IG: I think she can't, as far as I know, but there are some who are alive-- [tape cuts out]