Collection: Chandler Davidson Texas Politics research collection Interviewee: John Pouland Interviewer: Chandler Davidson Date: Unknown Transcribed by: Gabby Parker Chandler Davidson: Um, I'll tell you, I think I mentioned to you generally what I was doing. I'm um... trying to give an account of election year politics, actually, I go back to the introduction of the Benson bill in state legislature and follow that all the way up through this election. And I'm particularly interested in your role in uh--in organizing for Jamie Carter. John Pouland: Uh-huh. CD: And I wonder if you could tell me how you, uh.... how you became a Carter organizer, how you got into that role. JP: Well, I followed the Benson--I was working in the legislature at the time--and followed the Benson n--bill very closely. And came to understand it in some detail. And uh... so uh, it, you know, if you studied the bill, by virtue of just having that time with the law here, that was uh...you know, somewhat of a qualification in itself. CD: Uh-huh. JP: 'Cause it was--it was not--you know--easy to understand competently *** CD: Well what was--what were you, uh... what was your job in the legislature at that time? JP: I was an aide to the senator, Ron Clower. CD: Uh-huh, uh--by the way, do you mind if I record your comments here, just for my own notes? JP: No, no, not at all. CD: O-okay, I'll do that then, and tell you that I'm doing it so that it won't break any laws here. Uh...and uh, and then what happened? JP: Well, I uh...I was--uh, not particularly, you know, uh--getting involved one way or the other. Had--had made plans pretty much all along to...to uh, graduate from--from to, uh grad school that December, and uh work or do something for until I could start law school. I went to Dallas to work on uh... the council campaign. In oh, late November, early December. *** CD: Uh-huh. JP: Uh, during that campaign, Landon Butler, then another Carter organizer, came into Dallas, uh...*** Pat Payne, ***John Wiseman, others were there. And uh, they recommended that they get in touch with me to um... help organize. So uh... Landon butler, was the one who went out and gave me the call. And uh, I think from that right moment, he gave me the call, and Pat was there--Pay Payne was there, and um...hanging out with ***. So um, he gave me a call, and uh, you know, I thought about it a little bit, and I didn't know what *** and I did a little examination, uh, without even--and I felt, uh, pretty confident, that he was gonna be a big candidate, but also, a very very strong potential candidate for ***. CD: Uh-huh. Was this, now, in December of '75? JP. Right. CD: Okay. JP: Uh...uh, yeah, late November, early December. *** I guess it was uh... early December, now anyway. Uh...after an elector exam and, you know, my *** as a candidate, I felt pretty ***that he was gonna be a big help. Uh, he would be a strong candidate here. So I uh, uh, went to work almost instantly on the big drafts. CD: Were you, uh...uh, paid by the quarter organization at the time? JP: Right, right. And uh... if you want to call it that, minimal... CD: I understand it wasn't very much, huh? JP: Yeah, it got better, but it started out pretty low. But um... you know, I didn't know exactly how long I was gonna be involved *** one way or the other. Anyway, I uh, I went to work on it, and as the thing developed, uh, McCar--McCarthur, you know, *** on the bill, *** bill involved, you know, all of that time, we were the only people with any, you know, physical knowledge of the state of, geographical knowledge of the state. CD: Uh-huh. JP: Uh...w-oh...I guess, you know, just by virtue of being the only one who knew coordination, who did know how to run, I became the coordinator here. CD: Now, uh, the coordinator just in Dallas, or the state? JP: In all of Texas. And uh, that was in January. CD: Uh-huh. JP: Uh... CD: Let me ask you this, how did you pick up that--that knowledge of state politics? How long have you been engaged in--in uh, politics in the state? JP: Uh...I think that I was about...17, I guess, now, 17 *** Uh, I went to work on *** and uh... became somewhat involved in all that. CD: Were you involved in presidential politics that year? JP: No, ***yeah, I had my favorite and I was ***--working, I was working for Clowers. CD: Uh-huh. JP: And I was still recovering from that. Uh-- CD: Uh-huh...Uh, was this Clower's first uh-- JP: Yeah, it was his first election. CD: Yeah. JP: It uh...a short time earlier, he had gotten along with the democrats, with um...uh, you know *** I never had become real involved *** though I've always been, you know *** CD: Uh-huh. JP: Um... then I went to work at the *** with John Brown, when John quit to run for the legislature I *** CD: I see. JP: And I, I worked for him all the while--that was while I was in Dallas. CD: Uh-huh. JP: And then, uh... managing the *** campaign. Which uh, which was also in Dallas. But I'd done a little work on the campaign to, you know, develop***, and uh, a little work on *** there. CD: Uh-huh. JP: But, most of it was just--most of it was just academic at the time, staying useful from reading, and answering the pheons, and plus I, you know, just kept up with the type of people who were elected in various places, sort of got a feel for what different areas of the country were like. CD: Uh-huh. JP: And that certainly *** If...there's some statistics that could give you a degree of...you know, something to go by. CD: Uh-huh. JP: Familiarity with the area. Like Beaumont, Port Arthur, there was a tendency to--for like certain kinds of people to offer, you know ***. CD: Uh-huh. Well, let me ask you this--why, I mean, at this time, did the other candidates, and Benson in particular just have all of the uh...the uh, experienced political operatives sewed up? JP: Uh, I don't... you know, I don't really know. Uh...um, I did not...uh, prior to this term, I did not know, uh...you know, who had been very very active in...any organizations, I just knew the people that I had worked for. And I didn't know who was considered a, you know, experienced worker. So I wasn't really able to appreciate who was available and who wasn't-- CD: Uh-huh. JP: --and what they were doing. Uh-- CD: Was the Carter, uh, campaign at the time that it contacted you uh...um...really uh, intent upon uh...fielding slates in all 31 districts? JP: Yeah, they--there, they had a particular person, ***, there, who was familiar in detail with all the...the necessary primary laws and uh...party rules of delegate selection in the state. Because, I don't know if people were talking about--? CD: No, I don't know. JP: But he was extremely...uh, well-versed in every single state's election laws, primary laws. And he--he knew--he knew what was involved, um...the campaign might have based it's start a little earlier, but I don't know if it possibly could have with all the holidays and all the other things involved. CD: Uh-huh. JP: But um, by nature of the bill, uh... it was designed to bring people out. Because, the early filing requirement in a massive number of prefectures-- CD: Yeah. JP: Not so much, it's not a massive number of signatures relative to the other primaries, but, but relative to the filing deadline, it's uh... it was designed to get people out, it was designed to make the ***. Anyway, the *** appreciated, and they understood that and uh... planned for it in advance. And I think people down here were getting started, because they wanted to--I don't think, uh, some of the people there ever anticipated what was involved, ever anticipated getting it in all 31, written everything. The uh... most *** twenty, twenty-two. CD: Yeah, I remember the uh...the surprise that many people expressed at the time and uh... JP: Yeah, uh, most people around here were... were uh, only uh....thinking int terms of, you know thinking in terms of anywhere between 6 to 15, in Atlanta, you know with twenty or above, and when uh...when Carter came here for a press conference in January, late January, and went out and said he was filing, that he was filing uh...in all 31 districts, that was the first time he had...uh, that I remember hearing that we were gonna be on in all 31 districts. CD: Uh-huh. JP: So, that was...that was the first time we had known that. *** about 20, to 21 days. Anyway. CD: Okay, go ahead. JP: Uh, that would mean that we uh...*** look at the question *** going around, getting somebody in every district, to get the same number of signatures-- CD: Uh-huh. JP: And that was uh...in terms of, what was accomplished, it was all downhill after that. That was the real struggle, then selecting the delegates and...in uh, in a way that they would be geographically and politically and...racially and sexually balanced and so forth. CD: Yeah. JP: But uh, the real struggle was the *** the ones that were *** CD: Uh-huh. Was the uh, did you depend primarily in--in your signature drive on uh...liberal friends that you had uh... met, and that you had been involved with in previous campaigns? JP: Yeah...uh...in this race...well, it depends on the area. Uh, it--it's varied...you know, it's varied, uh, depending on the area. The area where the *** was. Really, I think of what--I've got a phone that everybody else has to use also--I'm going to go down--go down the way here and use another phone, I'll call you back, okay? CD: Okay, that'll be fine. JP: Alright? So-- CD: Just, give me a call back as soon as you-- JP: --Okay, just down the hall-- CD: --Thank you. [tape cuts out, then back in] JP: --varied, it's very *** always my mutual contacts with my personal friends who I can call up for-- CD: Excuse me just one second please. *background noise* Okay, sorry. JP: Okay, uh, that was the initial contact, in any case, where, you know, we're just personal friends. CD: Uh-huh. JP: Through school, through politics, whatever. That was always the initial contact. Um. And also people who by--by our previous advancing of--of trips, we would--what we would do is we would send out uh...to a certain destination...um...during that day in advance and follow the day after. Because that's uh... and in that evening, you know, make the necessary...meetings and later that night write a letter, you know, of what the following morning--write all the letters and material. CD: Uh-huh. Did you uh, personally go to all 31 districts? JP: No, I never got into uh... the panhandle, the 31st? CD: Uh-huh. JP: Nor the valley. *** But the rest of 'em... I mean, I don't know if I was physically in *** CD: Uh-huh. JP: So uh, *** Um, you know, and that was...we would, well... starting out, we did Texas. I was allowed uh, to nearly go to...I think moderate-liberals, they, they were certainly fully liberals, but that is to say much more uh... rational. Not--not implying that people who were taking other positions were not rational, but they were people who were not only inside of this organization, but who would ***. But they were also not um...*** And uh, I think really we were ***, the people we relied on were--were, would have been her people. And that's not the case, let's say in, in the first group of people *** the very young people, who are out of school, but they're...the second group, we *** The third group is not *** county. And at the other end of the county, you had another group of people who get really uh... I guess, the blacks, political ***. CD: And this was where? JP: Uh, that would have been the second--that would have been *** specifically. And we had very conservative on the other end. CD: Uh-huh. JP: And they got along real well *** it was fine, they had a common enemy. CD: Yeah, that usually work that way. *laughs* JP: Anyway, uh...some of the, some of the many cases--well, not as many I'd say but the ones we saw all the time were the bodies who were businesses, because they were moderately liberal. Uh... A couple of owners, people would call them *** they voted for the Voting Rights Act.*** And uh... so, it worked because Vincent had personally not involved ***. CD: Uh-huh. JP: The uh... Houston was a case of, you know, if you hadn't--having your dream willed and well-organized, or actually, maybe ***you had this label, which was a traditional, conservative *** organization, and Billie's organization, and really the only places liberals ***. The young people in ***'s organization who were really not really traditionally part of the-- CD: Uh-huh, who were some of those people? JP: Uh, that was specifically uh, Peyton Word, was what I would call our contact here, I lived out of his home for over a week, and, and made all the contacts and become good friends with him, and, and uh...he uh-- CD: Was Stan Merriman in that group too? JP: Uh, Peyton was the initial one, and Stan came in...uh, Peyton brought in several of the firefighters, by virtue of--he'd *** been a firefighter. CD: I see. JP: Now, he is not a--a firefighter, he is not a firefighter ***, but a couple of his buddies at their work, that brought in the firefighters *** CD: Does he have a patronage job with ***? Is that his--? JP: Um, he's a--he's a CPA. Um...his job was with uh--uh--and still is, I think he's about to go into it, go to work with the DA. ***I don't know his second *** Who--who appointed him to that, or how he got the job. CD: I see. JP: I'm certain *** really qualified, he's really talented. CD: Uh-huh. JP: But um, you know, I don't know if he worked with *** but being in with the politics, that organization, and uh, he was our contact here.*** Uh, they'd always send Democrats to him, but not *** they were not *** principal organizers for sort of ***staff associated*** CD: I see. JP: Um... ***liberal conservatives, very *** with the Labor movement, and we went with *** in Lubbock, it's the opposite of the other day ***Billie would have relied on city organizations. CD: Uh-huh. JP: But you know, it was a, it was a, you know, it-it, the factors were *** we always had people that I had to get aside, that I wanted to go see and talk to, with all of my protection and, Billie-- [Tape cuts out]